Compiled by Cheryl L.

Guest: Domo, Creator of BRC-20

Host: Isabel Foxen Duke

Podcast Source: Isabel Foxen Duke

Original Title: Domo's Perspective & the History of BRC-20

Air Date: March 27, 2025

Interview Highlights

• Projects like Bitcoin Punks demonstrated the ordinal’s cultural and technical potential, attracting developers, artists, and skeptics to explore its possibilities.

• Over two days, Domo built a rudimentary indexer to demonstrate the feasibility of BRC-20. The core idea of the inscriptions was to serve as a tablet for an account-based ledger, keeping the protocol as simple as possible.

• BRC-20 tokens were traded OTC using spreadsheets until UniSat released their indexer in early April 2023.

• Listing BRC-20 tokens was a logical experiment for exchanges, as the market seemed starved for a new narrative.

• In Domo's opinion, BRC-20’s success is a one-in-a-million story, and tweaking any design variables could have tipped the scales negatively. Much of the feedback he received early on wasn’t constructive.

• The indexer created by Best In Slot eventually evolved into OPI, a more decentralized client that anyone could easily operate on.

• Domo, Alec, and Best in Slot co-founded The Layer 1 Foundation as a governance organization to coordinate efforts among various indexers.

• The programmable module and single-step transfer can help BRC-20 integrate with other systems and adapt to future innovations.

• The lack of interoperability in Bitcoin fuels standard maximalism.

Domo, Ethereum, and how he found Bitcoin

Isabel: I understand that your background prior to Ordinals and BRC-20 wasn’t heavily focused on Bitcoin. Is that correct? What were you doing before Ordinals? Domo: That’s correct. I wasn’t focusing much on Bitcoin until about two years ago. I think the Ordinals protocol, like many others, brought me back to Bitcoin. Before that, I just held Bitcoin in my Ledger wallet without engaging further. I started relatively late, in 2019.

Isabel: Is that when you first got into cryptocurrency in general? Domo: Yes, 2019. I made all the typical beginner mistakes. My initial information sources were Reddit and YouTube, which weren’t the most reliable. Over time, I learned more. At the time, I was working in data science, and my breakthrough came in the summer of 2020 when I discovered Ethereum’s DeFi ecosystem, particularly platforms like Uniswap. I had just graduated and was building a data science portfolio. I saw an opportunity with Ethereum’s clean, accessible data—it didn’t require extensive preprocessing, and I could analyze it directly. Even better, I realized I could potentially earn money through the analysis.

My first project involved scraping Ethereum data to study Uniswap traders. I then built a Telegram bot to track the most profitable traders over time. This was during the peak of the DeFi summer, and I became quite comfortable working with Ethereum data.

Later, I started investing heavily, putting my entire paycheck into Bitcoin and Ethereum every month, but I was still struggling financially. I had just graduated college and was dealing with student debt. My real breakthrough in becoming crypto-native came when I discovered Twitter, Telegram, and Discord. I found some particularly valuable NFT Discord communities that were my lucky break in Ethereum, around January or February 2021.

Using my on-chain data skills, I leveraged this access to alpha groups, which helped me perform exceptionally well in 2021. It was an incredible period—the NFT summer was probably the craziest part of my crypto experience.

Isabel: How did you transition into working in the crypto industry full-time? Domo: Afterward, I started exploring ways to enter the industry full-time. At NFT NYC in November 2021, I met someone whose identity I didn’t know at the time—he was just a profile picture of a cap in Discord. It turned out he worked for a payments company in their crypto team. I eventually joined them and led on-chain data efforts for the team for a couple of years, up until the time I released BRC-20.

How Ordinals clicked for Domo

Isabel: What initially drew your attention to the Ordinals protocol? Was it something that immediately stood out to you? Domo: It was early 2023 when I first noticed the Ordinals protocol. What fascinated me was its ability to combine Bitcoin’s state availability with artistic and data-driven use cases. The concept of inscribing data onto individual satoshis and binding them through social consensus was unique and innovative.

I saw early experiments within the Ordinals community, such as Bitcoin Punks and Sats Names, which demonstrated the protocol’s potential for expansion. These projects were pushing boundaries, and it was clear to me that Ordinals had opened up new possibilities for Bitcoin beyond its traditional use cases.

Isabel: So it was the experimental nature of the protocol that inspired you? Domo: Absolutely. It felt like a fresh opportunity to explore Bitcoin’s untapped potential. The Ordinals protocol was not just a technical innovation. It was a cultural and social shift within the Bitcoin ecosystem. That combination was what really caught my interest.

Isabel: At the time you discovered Ordinals, it was still a relatively underground concept. How do you think it transitioned into the mainstream? Domo: When I first encountered Ordinals, it was indeed niche, mostly discussed within tight-knit Bitcoin communities. The turning point, in my opinion, was the creativity and experimentation within the community—projects like Bitcoin Punks and Sats Names were pivotal. They showcased that Ordinals could be more than just a technical innovation; it could drive cultural narratives within Bitcoin.

Another major factor was the buzz generated on social platforms like Twitter. Early adopters and influencers began sharing their experiments and creations, which caught the attention of a broader audience. It became clear that Ordinals had the potential to redefine how people interacted with Bitcoin, not just as a store of value but as a medium for expression and creativity.

Isabel: So community-driven experimentation played a big role? Domo: Absolutely. The community’s willingness to push boundaries and explore uncharted territory was critical. It created a ripple effect, drawing in developers, artists, and even skeptics who were curious about what Ordinals could offer. That collective energy helped propel it from an underground movement to a more mainstream phenomenon.

Isabel: Were there specific individuals or groups who helped you ideate and refine your thoughts around Ordinals? Domo: Definitely. The Ordinals community itself was a huge source of inspiration. I spent a lot of time in Discord channels and Twitter threads, engaging with others who were equally fascinated by the protocol. The open exchange of ideas in these spaces helped me refine my understanding and see the broader potential of Ordinals.

There were also a few key individuals who had a significant impact. Casey Rodarmor, the creator of the Ordinals protocol, was obviously a central figure. His work laid the foundation for everything that followed. Beyond Casey, I had valuable conversations with other developers and artists who were experimenting with the protocol. Their insights and feedback played a crucial role in shaping my own ideas.

Isabel: It sounds like collaboration was essential to your process. Domo: Very much so. The collaborative spirit of the Ordinals community was unlike anything I had experienced before. It wasn’t just about technical discussions; there was a shared sense of excitement and curiosity that made the whole process incredibly rewarding.

The Creation and Rapid Rise of BRC-20

Isabel: Did you ideate with anyone else about BRC-20 before you actually created it? Was this a community discussion before its execution? Domo: No, not really. There are two things I was thinking about. First, it felt strange that we started with NFTs before fungibles on Bitcoin, given that in every other ecosystem, fungibles come first. Satoshis themselves are inherently fungible, but the constraints of Bitcoin make implementing fungibility more challenging.

Second, I was inspired by what I saw happening in the Ordinals ecosystem. After seeing SATs names and their JSON structure, I started thinking about how to do something similar for fungible tokens. There was also a tweet from Red Phone Crypto, who works with Def Adventures, where he outlined a pseudo-spec for how fungibles might work. While his design wouldn’t have worked due to missing key elements, it was the catalyst that got me thinking.

I locked myself in my room for two days and built BRC-20. I started with the data side, creating an indexer, though it was very rudimentary and broke within an hour of launching. But the goal was never to create a polished product. It was meant to be a proof of concept to show that this could work. The core idea was to use inscriptions as a tablet for an account-based ledger, keeping the protocol as simple as possible.

Isabel: What happened after you tweeted about BRC-20? How did things unfold in the next 48 hours? Domo: It was crazy. Within an hour, Jack Lu from OrdSwap messaged me, saying the indexer was broken. I didn’t sleep much that night because I thought I had botched it. But it turned out the issue wasn’t on my end.

ORDI minted out very quickly—probably in less than 24 hours. People were using inscription tools or the Ordinals client itself to mint. Someone even created an indexer within 16 hours to track the instances of ORDI and ensure people weren’t wasting fees on already-minted tokens.

Isabel: How did so many people learn about BRC-20 so quickly? Domo: A few factors contributed to its rapid spread. First, my previous dashboards had already captured the interest of the core Ordinals community. When they saw something new like BRC-20, they were eager to try it.

Second, SATs names had been gaining traction the week prior, so there was already momentum in the ecosystem. Infrastructure providers also realized the potential of inscription tools as a revenue stream and quickly pivoted to support BRC-20. It was a case of right time, right place.

Isabel: When did these tokens start trading on secondary markets? Domo: I didn’t follow the OTC side closely, but apparently, people were using spreadsheets for trading. Shoutout to the old Ordinals space—Asher, for example, made one of the first major OTC trades during that time.

Isabel: So people were sending inscriptions to each other for OTC trades? Domo: Yes, OTC trading continued into late March. I released BRC-20 on March 9th or 10th, and the OTC dealings lasted until the end of the month. There was still uncertainty because proper indexing tools weren’t available yet, and people were saying the system was broken. It wasn’t easy to use at the time. Eventually, UniSat released their indexer, I believe in early April, which helped address these issues.

Isabel: When did BRC-20 start to get reliable pricing data? Domo: I’d say around late April 2023, going into May. Before that, there was a lot of uncertainty because proper indexing tools weren’t available yet. Once platforms like UniSat launched their indexers, it became easier to track balances and transactions, which brought stability to the ecosystem.

Unisat's Role in Early BRC-20 Ecosystem Development

Isabel: I was going to ask you how UniSat got involved. The indexer was not the first product they built that ultimately touched BRC-20. What was UniSat’s first engagement with BRC-20? Domo: They were an inscription tool. They built one of the inscription tools that allowed users, I think, when there was one hour left for ORDI minting, to easily inscribe through their tools. They were the fastest to pivot and make a specific mentor for ORDI, I believe, and later for other assets. What appealed to me about Unicat was that their tool was already battle-tested. You could tell they had a solid engineering team behind them. If you did some research, you’d find they came from the BSV ecosystem, where many early Ordinals builders originated. The implementation of their indexer stirred a second wave of OTC trading. Instead of relying on blind trust, people could now validate whether the middleman had actually received the assets, making the process more secure.

Isabel: So they built this on their own initiative? It wasn’t something you collaborated on? Domo: Yes, they acted independently. I was just supportive of anyone building tools for the ecosystem. At the time, Unisat was the most competent and proactive team. Best in Slot wasn’t far behind either. Both teams, along with others, were crucial in those early days, and I appreciated their efforts. When it came to building the indexer, it was very collaborative. We’d discuss ideas back and forth—“What do you think about this?” or “How should we approach that?” However, I didn’t play a significant role in their marketplace development. And I had no formal business relationship with them.

Exchanges Instantly Deciding to List ORDI

Isabel: I assume there was a big wave of OTC trading and price action before Unisat went live. When Unisat launched, did it create a significant price boost for ORDI and the broader BRC-20 market? Do you recall the first major downturn or correction for ORDI, or was it just “up only” until OKX listed it? Domo: No, it wasn’t just “up only.” My recollection is that there were three main catalysts: the indexer, the Pepe meme token on Ethereum, which brought attention to the broader crypto ecosystem, and the Unisat marketplace. OKX wasn’t far behind—just a couple of weeks later.

Isabel: The time between Unisat’s launch and OKX listing ORDI was pretty short, right? Did you have any conversations with OKX? Were you involved in the centralized exchange listing process, or did you have any idea it was coming? Domo: For every marketplace listing, except maybe Gate, which DMed me beforehand, I would just wake up and find out it was listed. It was crazy—they didn’t even try to contact me to say, “Hey, this is happening.”

One possible contributing factor is that 2023 was a very different time for listings. Early in the year, there wasn’t much happening. Pepe was a brief phenomenon, and while Ordinals were gaining attention, they couldn’t be listed on centralized exchanges. The market seemed starved for a new narrative, so listing BRC-20 tokens was a logical experiment for exchanges.

I’ve also heard theories that exchanges didn’t know which way things would go at the time. Most of their holdings—and still the majority—are in Bitcoin. If Bitcoin was leaving their exchanges to trade on-chain on platforms like Unisat, it was leaving their liquidity bubble. Listing these tokens and building tools around them was a way to retain that liquidity. OKX, for example, took this approach.

Criticisms of Ordinals in Early Stage

Isabel: Do you remember watching ORDI’s price action around that time? What was going on with the price? Domo: It was stressful. We had built an indexer, but there were still many loud voices on Twitter saying things like, “No, this is wrong,” or “No, that’s incorrect”—both philosophically and technically.

When I released it, I knew I was coming from an Ethereum background and didn’t have a network within the Bitcoin community like I did in Ethereum. Frankly, I didn’t know much about Bitcoin at the time. What I did know about Bitcoin was rooted in the ideals Satoshi laid out—things like open access, freedom, fairness. Bitcoin means different things to different people, but that was my perception at the time. As an Ethereum person, I had seen Bitcoin podcasters often speak negatively about Ethereum.

So I thought, “How do I emulate the fair, free, and open philosophy of Bitcoin?” That mindset led to several decisions, particularly the Mint function, which I believe was a significant contributor to its success.

Isabel: So there were technical considerations. You mentioned it was mostly stressful. Were you stressed out by criticisms of Ordinals, perhaps philosophical criticisms from people like Casey? Domo: Most of the stress was technical. It affected me at the time because there were very vocal critics saying negative things about the protocol.

I’ve been asked before, “If you had to do BRC-20 again, what would you do differently?” From a core design perspective, not much. In my opinion, BRC-20’s success is a one-in-a-million story, and tweaking any design variables could have tipped the scales negatively.

There are a few things, like the protocol’s inefficiency. You could improve data encoding or the structure, but even that has trade-offs. For example, with the Bybit hack last week, we saw the value of having human-readable text. While some points about efficiency are valid, I felt much of the feedback I received early on wasn’t constructive. Many suggestions seemed aimed at killing the protocol rather than improving it.

Ultimately, I’m glad I didn’t act on most of that feedback. We’ve had bad ideas for BRC-20 in the past, but the slow approach we’ve taken has allowed us to finally develop ideas that genuinely improve the protocol instead of rushing into temporary fixes that wouldn’t benefit it in the long term.

How did Best In Slot Help Coordinating indexers around Ordinals forks

Isabel: After ORDI was listed on centralized exchanges, its price action went wild. Since Casey launched the canonical indexer, it has become the indexer used by OKX and later Binance, making most of the liquidity dependent on the indexer created by Unisat. However, there were other indexers being developed, including one by Best in Slot. Can you share more about how Best in Slot got involved, the problems they aimed to solve, and how they approached indexing BRC-20 differently?

Domo: I believe I met Benari at the Orno Summit in Singapore in September 2023, about three or four months after the initial launch. By that point, we had been talking for some time. They mentioned they had built an indexer and had a strong background in indexing from Ethereum. They positioned themselves as an Ordinals infrastructure and aggregation company interested in offering BRC-20 indexing. I thought it was great—a highly competent company showing interest in BRC-20.

Isabel: So they wanted to build another instance of the indexer, similar to Unisat?

Domo: Yes. At the time, there was a narrative that BRC-20 was centralized, and we needed a coalition of indexers to address that concern.

Isabel: Some of the concerns stemmed from certain indexers refusing to open source their code or not doing so initially. I think the outcome was positive. There were several indexers at the time—off the top of my head, there were the Hero team, who indexed Alien much later, and the Ordiscan team, among others. Apologies if I’m forgetting anyone, but we had a good group of indexers in the early days. We would spot-check each other’s results, and you really only need one open-source implementation.

Best in Slot probably embraced the open-source philosophy most deeply. This eventually transformed into OPI, a client you could run to index BRC-20.

Isabel: The idea behind OPI was that it was more decentralized since anyone could run the software. How would you describe the decentralization benefits?

Domo: OPI was great because it was easy to run, much like the Ordinals client. Additionally, it featured a page where users could report a hash of the results for every block—the state hash—and compare these among indexers to ensure consistency. This allowed for cross-verification among indexers, providing an extra layer of accuracy and trust.

Relaunching the Layer 1 Foundation

Isabel: I think the next key moment in this story was when Casey was about to make a major upgrade to Ordinals. This created uncertainty for all the indexers about how to handle upgrades if the underlying protocol changed.

Domo: That was the main issue. It boiled down to one key decision: should we proceed with the upgrade or stick to the current implementation? The upgrade involved changing inscription numbers, so we had to decide whether to adopt the changes or maintain the current system until things were more solidified.

My priority has always been security, so my default decision was to avoid risks. The new inscription types didn’t seem to improve the protocol significantly, and they posed additional risks. We ultimately decided not to adopt the changes, and Unisat took a different approach, which was fine.

Looking back, the lack of communication led to tensions, exacerbated by the urgency of the situation as we approached a critical block height. However, we reached a compromise that satisfied everyone’s needs, and all indexers implemented the resolution within 48 hours. I’m grateful for the collaboration.

Isabel: After that moment of tension, it seems you relaunched the Layer 1 Foundation as a governance organization to coordinate among different indexers. Multiple companies with major BRC-20 indexers joined and socially agreed to collaborate. Is that accurate?

Domo: Yes, we realized we needed to avoid such situations in the future. The Layer 1 Foundation was established by me, Alec, and Best in Slot. Best in Slot had been an original contributor to the foundation, and we had been working together for some time.

The foundation’s purpose was to establish governance rules and decision-making processes to handle future upgrades more intelligently. It resulted in an oversight community overseeing two lead maintainers—Unisat and Best in Slot. Both indexers remain open-source and validate each other’s results.

Cooperation with Unisat and Best In Slot

Isabel: How is the working relationship between the three of you (UniSat, Best In Slot, and Domo)? I’ve had a glimpse into it, but I’ll let you share.

Domo: I’m happy with how things have gone. The teams are very different. Unicat is highly driven to innovate—building quickly, breaking things, and then fixing them, following a “move fast and break things” philosophy. Best in Slot, on the other hand, is more meticulous and conservative, coming from an audit background. They follow a “measure three times and cut once” approach. Together, they balance each other well, which has been beneficial.

I’m grateful to them for continuing to work on this open-source protocol. That’s how open-source development should work. While it’s great for the creator to initiate something, over time, better ideas often come from the collective efforts of more experienced individuals and a broader pool of contributors. I see myself more as a coordinator now, and I’m optimistic about the direction things are heading.

There may come a time when I’m no longer involved with BRC-20, and I think that would be healthy for the protocol’s open-source evolution. But for now, I’m still actively engaged, and I believe we’re moving toward a more robust and decentralized future.

Upgrading BRC20: Swap and Programmability Module

Isabel: You’ve been working as a team on specific technical developments. Over the past eight or nine months, two primary upgrades have been discussed: the swap module and the programmability module. Can you share more about these?

Domo: It’s a thankless job. Both Best in Slot and Unicat also run other businesses, so this is an independent project for everyone involved. No one is directly profiting from this work, yet they continue to contribute significantly to BRC-20 development.

The swap module idea dates back to summer 2023 when we realized that trading fungible assets wasn’t truly fungible. We were approximating fungibility by selling tokens in lots, similar to NFTs. Any sensible protocol should aim to improve that experience, which led to the birth of the swap module.

We made some mistakes early on, such as using a black-and-white swap module approach, but the technology proved viable. Unisat and Fractal Network later validated this approach, demonstrating its reliability and improving the trading experience to resemble fungibility more closely. Sequencers can enhance the user experience further, making it comparable to swaps on Ethereum or Solana.

Isabel: How did the original swap implementation work?

Domo: The concept hasn’t changed much since then, although improvements have been made over the years. The core idea remains a sequencer-driven swap module. People often refer to it as the Unisat swap, but it’s not specific to Unisat. Any team can deploy a swap module and adopt tokens into it.

The original implementation, using the black-and-white swap module, faced challenges. For example, it lacked a clear path forward for liquidity, which I believe was a mistake. However, this is something we’re actively working on, and it’s likely the next priority update for the protocol.

Isabel: What about the programmability module? How did that idea come about? Was it something you and Benari discussed early on?

Domo: Benari brought it up during discussions in Taiwan in 2023. My background in Ethereum influenced my perspective. While Ethereum has its critics, the Ethereum Virtual Machine (EVM) is battle-tested, widely adopted, and well-suited to BRC-20’s design. If we can adapt it to Bitcoin by binding data to UTXOs, it makes a lot of sense.

At the time, this was a forward-thinking idea, as we were just beginning to explore meta-protocols, let alone programmable meta-protocols.

Isabel: I remember hearing Benari talk about introducing an EVM at the indexing layer around April or June last year. It was groundbreaking at the time, though now it’s becoming a trend with many teams working on programmable meta-protocols.

Domo: I’ve thought a lot about the future of meta-protocols. Ultimately, I believe programmable meta-protocols will prevail. Even after two years, we’re still trading tokens like NFTs, which doesn’t appeal to users accustomed to more efficient systems like Solana or Ethereum.

We need to adapt and explore new possibilities, which is why I’m excited about the programmability module. My focus remains on the underlying assets of the BRC-20 protocol, and I believe rigid adherence to standards can hinder the industry’s growth.

Interoperability, Standard Maximalism, and Programmable Meta Protocols

Isabel: Do you think the lack of interoperability is driving standard maximalism? Domo: Yes, the lack of interoperability in Bitcoin fuels standard maximalism, unlike Ethereum, which is natively interoperable. It’s crucial to focus on the assets rather than rigid standards. The programmable module and single-step transfer can help BRC-20 integrate with other systems and adapt to future innovations.

Isabel: You’re not fixated on the BRC-20 standard but on asset survival, like ORDI, correct? Domo: Exactly. It’s naive to assume we’ve found the perfect solution after just two years of experimenting on-chain with Bitcoin. The programmable module allows integration with other systems, leaving room for better solutions in the future.

Isabel: Do you think making different meta-protocols programmable solves the interoperability problem? For example, a programmable BRC-20 isn’t necessarily interoperable with Runes or other programmable indexes. Is programmability enough, or do we need Layer 2 solutions?

Domo: There are various solutions, from centralized meta-protocol bridges to Layer 1 frameworks like Arch, and even Layer 2 solutions. The Bitcoin space is still exploring where trust assumptions lie and what users prioritize. Different subsets of the market have different preferences. For example, Bitcoin whales may prefer protocols with strict decentralization, while users from Solana may prioritize user experience and upside.

Isabel: Are programmable meta-protocols competitive with Layer 2 solutions? Or is the question irrelevant, given that different technologies will serve different types of users?

Domo: There’s room for both. Different users have different needs, and the Venn diagrams of their preferences will overlap. Bitcoin’s unique gravitational pull as the “best asset” keeps me optimistic about its future. The petty bickering we see in the space, especially on the Layer 2 side, is driven by ego and doesn’t serve the industry well.

Isabel: Do you think it’s realistic to have multiple Bitcoin meta-protocols that are interoperable, or will there be competition until one dominates?

Domo: My approach may be naive, but I believe we should focus on building technology that addresses user pain points and let the market decide. Users want different meta-protocols to be interoperable and have as much liquidity as possible. Some protocols may fail for other reasons, but interoperability shouldn’t be the limiting factor.

Isabel: Does BRC-20 have an advantage over other programmable meta-protocols, given its existing liquidity and adoption?

Domo: Yes. If BRC-20 remains static without programmability or interoperability, it risks being left behind. However, by embracing programmability and single-step transfers, BRC-20 can integrate with other systems and potentially create its own gravitational ecosystem. Even if it doesn’t dominate, the interoperability angle ensures it remains relevant.

Isabel: What’s your core message to builders in the community about approaching these challenges?

Domo: Don’t be a “standard maxi.” Be an “asset maxi.” Focus on the long-term value of Bitcoin and its ecosystem rather than chasing short-term narratives. For example, innovations like BitVM bridges could unlock new yield opportunities, but the industry seems too focused on technical debates rather than exploring their broader implications.

I also think the space has lost some of its early optimism. In the early days of Ordinals, there was mutual respect and excitement. I’d like to see the community return to that mindset, focusing on collaboration rather than competition.

Isabel: Do you think people underestimate the potential of programmable meta-protocols?

Domo: Absolutely. There are many exciting developments, like those from Alcanes and Glitter, and I appreciate the collaborative spirit in those communities. Programmable meta-protocols remind me of the early days of Ordinals, where people were experimenting and innovating.

For example, the programmable module combined with sequencer-led applications and single-step transfers could open up new possibilities. I’m optimistic about how these innovations will play out, but it’s important to take our time and test thoroughly.

Isabel: You’ve mentioned the single-step transfer several times. Is the market demand for it the main reason you’re excited about it?

Domo: Initially, I was hesitant about its necessity, as the issue could be abstracted away on the wallet side. However, the clear demand from BRC-20 users has made it a priority. It’s a feature that addresses a real pain point and enhances the user experience.